Jamies Story Page30
on March 5, 2012 at 12:01 amHo SHI-
(next update Thursday : D)
Welcome to Khaos Komix
on January 14, 2013 at 11:28 amKhaos Komix is a GLBTWTFBBQ Comic that ran from 2009-2012. It has over 500 pages is now complete with an archive for you to browse at your leisure.
You can either Start from the beginning or read about each couple.
(Trigger warnings for EVERYTHING and nothing is safe for work.)
For those of you finished with Khaos, I present Shades of A over on my new site Discord.
[ 10 Comments ]
:O!!!! Oh this is so good! Can’t wait for the next page! I was expecting this to be more along the lines of “And then that asshole hit me what a dick” and instead get this! Sooooooo good!
Thought this said “And then that asshole hit me with a dick”, and I was like, well, that changes things a bit.
Me too
I read it that way too…was gonna say, well, no, he doesn’t have one just yet.
Nice. So he really /would/ have known all along that Charlie was a boy (so to speak).
How? He only knows about Tom, but that dieoesn’zt mean he knows about Charlie, too. Or did I miss a piece?
maybe it’s that the exposure to one secret tg person opened his eyes to the possibility, he has the ability to notice the signs given the chance, so it’s more likely he noticed at some point?
I have wondered if Jamie’s expression in charlie’s page 42 (which should be coming up pretty soon here (yay!)) Is him realizing that she’s trans. Having just realized about Tom, and thinking about gender, might make him more likely to notice the more subtle gender cues.
She’s not wearing her choker on that page. XD
Holy crap, Zaylinda–I think you’re right! Jaime just met his first trans person, so he may be temporarily wondering if everyone he sees is trans . . . and in walks Charlie. Jaime does give her kind of suspicious/surprised looks throughout that whole scene where she helps clean him up, doesn’t he?
Although by “met”, I mean that Jaime has just first *recognized* a person as trans: specifically, Tom. (He’s met Tom already but didn’t seem to suspect anything until now.)
I always thought he discovered it when he accompanied her from his job.
My best guess is that when he meets Charlie, he’ll notice things about her posture, maybe when she has her short little “OMG YOU’RE BLEEDING” outburst when they first meet, her voice drops into deeper pitch.
If he doesn’t know from their first meeting, I’m sure hanging around her he’ll notice things about her physically, especially as an artist (like Amber.) And even though Charlie thinks they haven’t done anything intimate that would let him know about her, I think there’s a chance he would anyways. He just had one fight with Tom and noticed the things about his neck. What happens when Jamie is nomming on Charlie’s neck and notices her Adam’s Apple? Or what if Charlie moans in a more masculine-sounding voice?
Interesting speculations… I’m eagerly waiting for Jamie to tell us more in future!
I think you’re right on Charlie’s page 41, if “holy shit you’re bleeding” wasn’t it, probably “shut the fuck up and accept my help!” did it. Just look at his expression while she’s dabbing him in the last mini-panel. Which leads to the next page.
The same way Amber did – first she picked up on Tom, and that made her suspicious of the fact that Charlie always wore a choker.
Just. So. Awesome~ I’m happy I stayed up waiting ^^
and from all the other stories we know Jamie won’t talk about this to anyone, which means… hey, he could be even MORE accepting than we think, he’s just “not accepting” it because hit mother would throw a fit if he did… this is wonderful ^^
Jamie’s Story is a real surprise for me, and this page is one of the reasons… I hated him at first and when I heard that he dated charlie (who is still my favourite ^^) I hated the idea… but now, that I know him better, I kinda like him a lot. Can’t wait till he says why he wants to break up… (I think it is either because he knows that charlie is trans – and doesn’t want to get in trouble with his mum – or he doesn’t know and realises he is gay and that it wouldn’t be fair to be with her).
But to come back to this page; it shows a lot about him that he knows, but doesn’t tell on him.
Jamie’s not going to turn out to be gay. Tab always makes it a happy ending somehow. <.<
In my opinion, I think when he says he's "leaving" her, he's literally leaving to go somewhere. Maybe a university or just leaving to think over things and pull himself together.
Now that I think about it, your right- that would make a lot of sense.
I have a hunch that maybe his mum is moving, and dragging him with her? Hmmmm the possibilities.
It would make me a lot happier if he was getting the heck away from his om, but yeah, I got the sense that he’s moving geographically too.
When did Jamie ever say that? I don’t remember ever reading that. I remember Tom wanting to break up with Alex out of fear of what he might think of him being a transman, but I don’t remember anything like that with Jamie and Charlie. (Though, Charlie did say she wanted to break up because she was upset that things had happened to him and was afraid that her body being a male’s would scare him. But he didn’t want to break up with her and told her that he already knew.)
It’s his opener. “I’m about to leave the only girl I ever loved.”
That doesn’t mean he actually did, though… I said “I’m about to to the dishes” about ten times today and look, they’re still there : P
Excellent point.
\o/
Jamie finds out about Tom’s trans status before Alex does. Lol.
Also, I hope people don’t think Jamie is transphobic because of the comment “Tatto boy was a girl.” With his ultra-conservative-religious upbringing, I highly doubt he even knows trans individuals exist. He’s probably freaking out right now because his worldview has been completely turned topsy-turvy.
I’d further like to point out that my whole worldview was turned topsy-turvy when I learned of the existence of trans individuals, and I wasn’t much older than Jamie is now when I did. Took me about 4 or 5 more years to come to terms with the fact that I am queergender myself.
I learned about transgendered people over a year ago, maybe two or three. I don’t really know exactly, but I’m sure it’s somewhere around there. It took me three years to come to terms with the fact I like girls and then when I learned about transgendered people and that it’s possible to have more than one gender at once, I figured out that I’m not completely quite a girl nor have I ever been. I’m still coming to terms with the fact I’m fluid gender and it’s hard to understand the gravity of it. I’m still not completely sure if I’m pansexual or a lesbian. I crush on guys at times, but the idea of ever being with one completely is a bit of a turnoff to me while with girls it’s not and I’m not sure what it means yet. So I’ve decided to stop trying to give names to what I am and just be me and eventually I’ll find who I really am and see if any of those aspects can have words put to them.
You know, it’s strange. Somehow, I’ve always been aware that homosexuality existed; I remember asking my mother about it when I was very little, maybe six years old at the most. I became aware of genderqueerness later, maybe in high school, but again because I figured it out or just gradually became aware of it, and that it was not the same thing as being gay.
I don’t remember the one big moment where I became aware of either of them. I just kind of gradually came to an understanding.
Yeah. I can’t remember one big moment in my life where I became aware of that stuff either. I was aware of homosexuals since I can remember. My mother never made a big deal out of such things, it was just natural. Nor did I have a big moment learning about transsexuals. I knew that you can change your body since I was a kid. I didn’t know much about it, but I was aware of the possibility. Learning more about transsexuals later wasn’t a big deal since I was already aware of them.
I never grew up in an abusive household, but let’s say my dad was rather oppressive on certain things. He has what I call a “general blind hatred” for gays resulting in a similar situation that Jamie experienced in his childhood, only it was his older brother that was his attacker. He will be the sweetest, most gentile, kindess man to someone he knows is gay, and yet when he gets into his politics and listening to Faux News or various conservative radio shock jocks, he’ll rant on how horrible and vile and unnatural gays are. So I grew up knowing about homosexuality, but with a skewed view of it being okay but not okay.
huh. that was a smack upside the head. always believed jamie was a scared, angry but caring kid, but now he’s proved it. aah… thanks, tab
THURSDAY AAAAAAAAAH
hehehehehe why yeah she is
Get out, troll.
He’s quite noticing of details even while being beat up.
S’one reason maybe he was gettin beat on? No dis to Tom, I firmly believe Tom could take Jamie if it ever really was important, but y’know. . .
“Waitaminute! Are those. . . ” *SMACK*
This is going to get interesting…
I think I missed the livestream.
This is an amazingly laid out page. Dramatic…and who knew you could gain so much knowledge in a brawl? Jamie is more perceptive than I thought…so it doesn’t seem so unlikely that he would twig straight off that Charlie is not what gender she seems…ooooooooo LOVE IT.
WHAT THE FUCK! Is this why Jamie starts helping Alex get Tom?!
Because “tattoo boy is a girl” so their relationship is seen as “straight” to Jamie?! I could punch a baby right now.
I BET HE’S TROLLING ALEX THAT WHOLE TIME. Helping him get Tom, hoping that Alex will get all dumbfounded and shit once Tom comes out to him. I BET HE’S SO UPSET THAT IT DIDN’T HAPPEN THAT WAY.
Keep in mind though that despite this revelation, Jamie continue to refer to Tom as “tattoo boy”.
no… i really just think that after everything changing so rapidly, jamie finally opens his mind just a little bit and decides that it’s stupid for him to hurt tom and alex anymore… dont think it has to do with the genders. jamie is bright and sensitive, he just wears it funny. he’s coming around now. and… like some of us… it takes that much of a sledghammer to get us to come around (pointing the finger at me of course…)
Huh. And here I thought he’d only known about Charlie, not Tom. Go figure.
Omg did not expect! This is an amazingly dramatic page. I do love how Jamie continuously calls tom “tattoo boy”
Ironically enough, the fact that Jamie could have found Tom out during the fight never occurred to me before this. And yet makes so much sense. I wonder if Tom ever thought Jamie new he was a transman at any point? He was probably too enraged to think where Jamie was touching.
Granted, Jamie also never seems to out Tom either in the other stories which is interesting. He baited Alex whenever he could after all. Whatever his perspective is he didn’t try to spread anything. It’s going to be interesting to see his thoughts on Tom now as much as when he found out about Charlie. :3
I knew Jamie’s story would be worth the wait ^3^
This is interesting because at the end of Charlie’s story Jamie says “I hate tattoo boy because he’s an asshole. Where he puts his dick isn’t my concern.”
Which is interesting, because he’s not outing Tom and/or letting Charlie assume he thinks Tom is cisgendered. (Of course, he could rightly assume that Tom could easily purchase a dick/dildo, but he’s still LETTING Charlie assume he doesn’t know about Tom.) Very interesting.
http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/charlies-story-page-83
Yeah, I liked that bit too.
This page is great, so fast paced and energized. But I couldn’t help but notice that Charlie was missing his tattoo on his right arm in the first panel. It pops right back into place on the last panel, though.
Nope, that’s Jamie’s arm as it’s grabbing onto Tom’s arm. Tom has him in a chokehold.
I think Vero-Chan is referring to the top-left panel where Tom is punching Jamie. There, Tom’s right arm is blank, but at the bottom, the snake tattoo is visible.
Darnit, I meant Tom, not Charlie. Name-Dyslexia seems to run in my family.
also the lack of a boner during that choke-hold… damn, and here I was hoping my binder would prevent anyone from feeling my tits when I grabbed them from behind.
This update. Mouth open and brain fried.
Heh. He calmed down after all that. Maybe because he left home at one point? Or because he found something he didn’t want to hurt? Tune in for more!
Skinny neck, slightly high pitched whines when punched, strange squishiness in chest? Must be a lady!
I’m sorry, that’s kind of jumping to conclusions, yeah? I know plenty of pencil necks who squeal like bitches when hit (excuse the sexist language). And the chest? Good God, how many people know about binders enough to just assume that? And hell, maybe Tom is a cisgendered guy with abnormal breast growth- a hell of a lot more common than being a transman.
It’s getting a bit irritating that the trans people in Khaos pass super well, but almost all of the main characters have crazy good Transdar. Most people don’t have any. And I’m sorry, but during a fight Jamie shouldn’t be trying to figure out how skinny his attacker’s neck is or why their chest is a bit squishier than he’d imagined. Jamie should be trying to figure out how to break Tom’s nose.
And without prolonged exposure to the trans community, there’s really no reason why that should even pop up in my mind. Before Chaz Bono, a lot of people didn’t even know FtMs existed. But Jamie’s got them on his mind even in the most distracting of situations.
This may shock you, but this is fiction. Yes, it’s silly how easily Tom and Charlie pass, yet some characters take note of it easier than most in real life. But that is reality. This is fiction. Tab can have Jaime turn into an unicorn if wanted.
I’m not attempting to be rude. But these things help develop the plot a little more. It might not be realistic, but I doubt any of us read fiction because it is 100% realistic.
Yes it’s fiction. Yes, the writer can do whatever they want. Doesn’t mean that we have to believe in the fiction, or like that fiction. If Jaime turned into a unicorn, I’m sure you would probably stop reading this, as it would be a completely unexpected event, and removes you completely from the story.
As someone who is trans, seeing the trans characters a) pass extremely well and yet b) be clocked by every character is as jarring as a random character turning into a unicorn. It’s not believable, and it’s a little upsetting.
It would feel better if the characters could actually be surprised by trans people’s coming out. It would feel better if Jaime couldn’t just tell that Tom is trans (not to mention, saying “tattoo boy is a girl” is grating as well, but whatever).
While I understand your point of view, I’d like to mention that both Charlie and Tom are described as ‘passing’ well, but only a few characters have noticed they’re trans. As far as I know, only Amber could see it, and the others who know have been told. In this page, Jamie notices some things about Tom and realizes it. Maybe the way Jamie realizes isn’t the most convincing one, but oh’well..not everything can have a rock-solid plotline.
That makes.. 2 people who have ‘trans-radar’? That’s not quite the whole set of characters, if you ask me.
I understand that this can be a touchy issue, but I think you misunderstood the amount of people who actually noticed Tom and Charlie were trans. Personally, I think that the balance is quite good. They both pass well as the desired gender, and only one (Amber) could see they were, let’s say, ‘different’. The rest of the characters didn’t have a clue until they were told or, in this case, got into physical contact with one of them.
Sorry, but if Jamie turned into a unicorn, this would upgrade from “a very interesting and compelling story that I wait anxiously for the updates to and am on tenterhooks to know how it ends” “OMGTHISISTHEGREATESTSTORYEVER”. We all have things that turn us on or off of fiction; please don’t make assumptions about what that is for the rest of us.
Also, only two characters have good “Transdar” thus far: Amber and Jamie. Alex /was/ surprised to learn that Tom was trans; the fact that he didn’t express that surprise by freaking out does not change that.
And, Tab has admitted that the reason Charlie and Tom pass as well as they do is because he* didn’t do any research beforehand. However! Consider the odds for but a moment. What are the odds of two teenagers, who are already easier to pass than fully grown adults, being trans and passing fairly well to the majority of the people in their school (remember, the cast don’t speak for the majority, merely themselves), with the exception of maybe two or three people? If everyone in the school figured it out pretty much as soon as they saw them, that would also be unrealistic; some of us are /really bad/ at distinguishing gender normally in people who don’t have some sort of indicator (gender neutral pronouns, you are my friends), let alone people who are trans. But if /no one/ noticed, that would be equally unrealistic, because there /are/ people who are observant enough to notice these things. So far we’ve had two people who’ve noticed (that we know of) in a student body consisting of probably a few hundred.
Therefore, Khaos is probably not nearly as unrealistic is you’re making it out to be.
Really, I like my fiction to feel real. Jamie, who was too clueless to see Mark and Steve’s crush, but being perceptive enough to tell Tom “is a girl”? I’m sorry, but what? I don’t just assume people aren’t the sex they present themselves as because of stupid shit like skinny necks. And the “squishy chest” thing is something that someone clueless about trans people isn’t going to click on.
As someone who is pretty ambiguous, it’s been my personal experience that people just accept what I am pretty easily. If I’m at work, and a customer thinks I’m a man, and I gently correct them, they just accept it. Most people hardly even consider the possibility that someone could be presenting themselves as something they’re “not”. If I go out in public and decide I feel like a dude today, I go out in public with my tits not bound. Why? Because they’re kinda small, and I’m kinda chubby, and only every once in awhile does someone realize I might be a woman- and as soon as I correct them, they are mortified at their “mistake”. Unless it’s a small child, or someone who knows about trans people.
I just think that “high pitched cries”, “skinny neck”, and “squishy chest” = GIRL is a big leap. And even with Charlie, hell, I know some cis chicks with huge Adam’s apples. But Amber could tell Charlie was, and could tell Tom because of the mysterious air around him? My ass.
Some of you guys might like it, and that’s fine. If I was the age I was when I first started reading this, I’d eat it all up. I’m hopelessly addicted because I’ve been reading this for so long, but it’s a grudging addiction, because I find pages like this a bit too implausible. And for me, art- even fiction, and even fantasy- should feel real enough to imitate life.
Once upon a time there was a school where a group of boys plays with two little trans. This two trans didn´t enjoy because They ended in hospital with injuries (charlie´s history 23-32 & Tom´s history 41-47). As far as i know there are only 4 people (The art teacher in charlie first school, alex, amber and Jamie with charlie) in this history that pass well with the trans thing and about 7 people (classmates of charlie´s school) that bullied them.
Just one thing, the history is told remembering the past.
There´s mistakes in this history but i don´t think that two trans passing well is the main problem. The lumpy thing is something funny ^^.
=============
Hace un tiempo hubo una escuela donde un grupo de personas jugaron con dos pequeños trans. Estos dos trans no lo pasaron muy bien porque terminaron en el hospital con heridas (historia de Charlie 23-32 e historia de Tom 41-47): Hasta donde sé hay 4 personas (el profesor de arte de Charlie, Alex, Amber y Jamie con Charlie) que aceptaron la transexualidad y cerca de 7 personas (Compañeros de clase de Charlie) que los acosaron.
Hay fallos en la historia pero no creo que dos transexuales siendo aceptados sea el principal problema. La cosa apretada ha sido divertida ^^.
To Xasswuwe:
Actually, Jamie hasn’t made any Trans conclusions on this page yet. He’s only realized that someone who walks around as a guy otherwise has boobs and a vagina. For all we know at this moment, Jamie just thinks Tom is some kind of cross dresser or something.
And not all of the main cast has good transdar. Amber is the only one to spot Tom and Charlie from the start, and Jamie has only just figured something is off mostly by touch with Tom. We don’t know about Charlie yet. Alex didn’t notice anything with Tom, he just took it crazy well.
Am I forgetting a moment when they were found out by someone else? None of the other main cast has any clue. (And again, Alex was told at that).
I say props to you Xasswuwe.
I actually don’t think it’s all that unrealistic for Jamie to be aware of transgendered persons without exposure to the community. I didn’t have any trans friends until college, and didn’t know that gay != trans until shortly before then, but I was well aware that some people wanted to be / thought they were a different gender and that there was something called gender reassignment surgery that would do that for you in some sense. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I first learned about transpeople through a religious/political publication that my parents were subscribed to (naturally it was talking about the evils of transness and how men were using this as an excuse to get into ladies bathrooms and the like….). I would never out someone for fear of being wrong, but I’ve had a pretty alert transdar ever since. Given that Jamie also has a religious background, I wouldn’t be too surprised if he’s had a similar experience.
As for paying attention during the fight, it’s got to be a little hard to ignore a little bit of unexpected squish. Even though the other characteristics are listed first, they could have been noticed in the opposite order. And it wasn’t each individual characteristic, but the combination of all of them that led Jamie to his conclusion.
Finally, Jamie did *not* expect Steve to be gay. So he’s probably already*= a little suspicious of the world around him.
I also wonder if Jamie has lately seen all kinds of people while working, or in those parties he has attended, and that’s why he realises those details in Tom?
well tabs style is very same-facey and more simplistic, so really, charlie might not pass as well as we think, tom may not either. they are drawn more symbolically. I find this frustrating myself, because i find it hard to sympathize with CHarlie’s fear of being “found out” when absolutely EVERYONE looks the same, just different hair and sometimes skin tone.
I completely agree on this one. Character differentiation is something I’ve been trying to work on, but I can’t change the characters too much as they’ll start to not look like themselves!
The start of Steve’s story is almost 6 years ago now, since then my art has changed dramatically, but for Khaos I’ve had to keep it similar if not a bit better so the characters are recognisable. If anyone has seen my other work (the Khaotic Emporium) the characters are a lot more varied. This is something I hope to change for work that comes after Khaos.
Wow, so Jamie was actually the one with eyes to see and brain to interpret (as opposed to eyes to ogle and brain to fantasize). Who’d have known. Well I guess all those hours learning to watch details to better paint them did serve to something. Now if we apply that kind of knowledge to Charlie… well no wonder he said he knew. I wonder how it went in his head though.
This page is amazing. I absolutely love the art. This page makes me love Jamie even more. He is simply amazing to notice such subtle things. I definitely cannot wait for the next page. Or the page after, when Jamie and Charlie first meet!
Tom’s boobs are too small to be noticeably felt with the use of a binder. Even if they were felt, I doubt it’d be all that suspicious.
Though I suppose I think Jamie identifying one trans individual is more believable/acceptable than Amber identifying both, it still rubs me the wrong way (and it seems he’ll also identify both early without giving any sign of such recognition to Charlie, who, if he knew this, he might think would maybe want some kind of assurance that he was cool with it). I think there should be more conversation/confrontation/self-questioning than there is; he might SUSPECT something, but I think KNOWING Tom was biologically female is a stretch based off those few things. Hell, my first girlfriend was trans and I didn’t know it at first, and we had conversations about sexuality and gender afterward, and I had a lot of misconceptions about trans* people that embarrass me to think about now, but we talked about it, and she was surprisingly patient in teaching me. Even as an artist, I don’t think these few characteristics are very telling and in such short a time, too. Not all men have adams apples or look incredibly “masculine”; not all have super-firm chests or deep voices.
I think it’d be more realistic and interesting for Jamie to suspect something about Tom but not to be able to pinpoint it right away, instead of just stating “Tom is a girl.”
As one of very few comics addressing trans* people, I’d enjoy it a lot more if not EVERYONE was so accepting, because we don’t live in accepting-world. I think it’d be even MORE interesting if one of the gay/lesbian/bi characters had some transphobia issues to overcome. I still love Khaos, but I’m a sucker for realistic tragedy and realistic relationships and prejudice.
I agree with you to a point. I love that everyone in Khaos seems to be far more accepting than people in the real world, it’s heart-warming. But the amount of transphobia I see even in the GLBTI community is upsetting in real life. I’ve even met other trans* individuals who will belittle and condemn people who are genderflid/genderqueer or who have decided they don’t want to undergo any surgeries or take hormones. The world NEEDS more love and tolerance. Not EVERYONE in Khaos has been loving and accepting however. It’s not such an unrealistic story as it is a very lucky one.
i’d LIKE your comment if i could, Nate. There is a LOT of internalized transphobia among the transcommunity. either because you don’t pass well, you pass too well, or you do something gender non-conforming such as androgyny or genderqueer. if nothing else, the amount of machismo some transmen display to “prove” their masculinity turned me off of “ftm or mtf” gender binary thing.
Also between drag queens and trans* persons. Some of the most transphobic, ignorant words toward trans people (specifically, those who desire surgery) I have heard have been from drag queens. And the hyperfemininity/masculinity problem is all too common, I think especially initially when there is a need to “prove” oneself, and it makes me so sad. I see it to a lesser degree in LGB persons, lesbians who try to be more butch to fit in or even just to be perceived as lesbian. I wonder if Tom is maybe enacting a bit of hypermasculinity in these fights so as not to be “discovered”? He’s gotten so aggressive. Then again, he’s got a lot of pent-up aggression toward the people who attacked him and Charlie and he’s over-protective, so it may just be his way.
Oh, and I guess (to Elliott) I’m assuming they are still relatively small. I’ve noticed people who have or have had eating disorders are stunted in growth, which was part of why I think Tom went that route, and considering that Tom is pretty flat with the binder without wearing more layers I don’t suppose he’s all that large-chested (plus working out a lot helps keep the muscles firm). And from feeling bound chests before, it wouldn’t be the first thought that comes to mind that this person=female, depending on the circumstances and the type of binding used.
But man, the artists in this story seem to have super trans-dar.
I enjoyed all your contributions and opinions
. And one day, Elliott, they will make a magic binder. One day.
I just wanted to reply to your binder assertion. How do you know how big Tom’s chest is? I don’t remember Tab actually drawing it.
I’m big (DD-cup) and can bind remarkably flat, but there’s still plenty of squish under my binder. 1″-2″, depending how tightly I bind. Obviously I don’t know how it works for people with smaller chests, but (unfortunately) binders aren’t magic.
Well, before Tom starts binding his chest, his boobs are still pretty small. We never actually SEE them, but they look pretty damn small behind strategically placed text boxes and body parts and underneath shirts.
Shirtless Tom:
http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/toms-story-page-11
http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/toms-story-page-13
Clothed Tom (before he starts binding):
http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/toms-story-page-17
http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/toms-story-page-21
Granted, this is a couple years before the present point in the comic, but I doubt his boobs are going to grow more. He COULD, but I’m betting he hasn’t, given how Tab has enabled him and Charlie to pass easily.
I was flat as a board up until my freshmen year in college. By the time I graduated, I had a d cup. And they’re still growing. So Tom may have developed a considerable amount since those instances.
I started developing when I was 11. Topped out at a C cup by the time I was in grade 6 or 7… nowadays I think I might be a B, but seeing how I haven’t worn a bra in the last 5 years or so I can’t say for sure. I think weight loss might have something to do with it, that and continuous binding. Since Tom lost a whole lot of weight with his drinking, plus the way developing shoulder/chest muscles tends to diminish breasts (or at least make them appear to be smaller), it’s definitely feasible that his started small and stayed small. But yeh, they certainly seem quite small in his chapter, something I’ve been envious of…. I swear got the ass end of all the genetics in my family. My mom’s height, which makes me shorter than every single one of my family members INCLUDING my grandmother (dad’s mom), but got her breasts instead of mom’s (mom’s an A, nana’s a C or bigger), plus her dad had male pattern baldness and since it’s carried on the mom’s side rather than the dad’s, once I go on hormones I’ve got a very high chance of losing my hair… whereas my dad’s dad had a full head of non-grey hair until the day he died at age 85.
*SIGH*
I would just like to point out that Alex seemed to be rather startled as well, in a similar fashion to Jamie, when Tom put his hand to his chest coming out to him. I know that Alex was sort of expecting something, but
I really think Tom is hiding more than most people think, chest-wise.
Well, I love this. I love that a lot of people in Khaos are so accepting and loving. We need more love and respect in our lives, as well in books or comics or movies. Love love love.
Hey, maybe the “only girl [Jamie] ever loved” is his mother and he’s leaving her for Charlie? That’d be good.
Charlie is a girl, though.
On this subject,it could still be his mother he is leaving.Despite that Charlie is a girl,she is still physically male,right?Jamie might take that and just consider her to be a crossdresser.
Or something.
But we already know that Jamie knows that Charlie identifies as a girl – we see that in the last couple of pages in her story. I hardly doubt he then consider her a “male crossdresser”, and not a “girl”/”trans-girl”/you know what I mean. Argh words.
I JUST KNEW IT!! I had a feeling that this is what was coming. But I talked myself out of it, but nope, I was right!!
Can’t wait till next update!
(I’m the above poster, anon, wo ‘just knew it!!”)
I just want to also comment on the layout of this. The way you drew the fighting, their positions, etc;
I didn’t read through all the comments so I apologize if this has anyone has said this, but my theory as to why he is leaving in the beginning of the story is he is going to confront his abuser…
Personally, I’m really impressed with everyone’s comments! I love that in Khaos, we can have a civil conversation about these topics that is respectful and though provoking. Everyone is clearly being careful to not be offensive, while still having a great conversation about everyone’s opinions of the comic, and their own real life experiences. There has been no persona attacks or rudeness at all!
Nowhere else on the internet have I seen this before! Wow! You all rock! Thanks for being so awesome everybody =)
I like that this page expands what happened during the fight. It looked like Jamie got owned.
I read that comment-thread about how realistic this situation would be. First of all, if Jamie turned into a unicorn or, better yet, grew a unicorn horn on his forehead that would be so trollish, awesome and funny. I want to see that and, as someone reading magical realism for a literature class, the word of the day would be “symbolism.” A great deal of the fictional media we consume is fantastical. But on the actual topic of Jamie finding out…
While I agree that it’s unrealistic, especially considering in a fight like that (where Jamie was already emotional) I have a hard time believing he’d realize much of anything, I think Jamie concluding Tom is a girl is going to be important. At a glance, this fight might seem like an easy place to put this “discovery.” If we consider that this had to happen in some form for the plot, then what other situation could happen that wouldn’t cost Tom? This situation is the most convenient in sparing Tom and not creating a complicated subplot between Jamie and him. The bottom line is, this appears to be a means to some end.
There is probably something slightly wonky in my head that the last line in this page has made me madder at him than I’ve been for a few pages now.
AND THEN CHARLIE FUCK YES
AMIRITE?
Mikkousha:
I agree with you here. Even though it is kind of clumsy when it comes to realism, I can’t really see no other way for Jamie to find out – and it is obvious that he has to find out from what we know of the story and his personality so far.
Or is it? Why does Jamie has to know Tom’s status? I understand that i might somewhat help the issue with Charlie later on, but seriously.. Since it takes so long time from their initial meeting to their first kiss, he has plenty of time to figure it out and deal with the implications of it. (Honestly, I still think the change is rather quick. From “homophobical”, at a loss for better word here, to open in just a few months? Without anyone to talk to and discuss it with? (it is obvious he is alone in this))
I recognize the use of befriending the problem, i.e. that Tom gets to be the first exposure in order to open up for Charlie. But I don’t really buy its credibility this time, since A) Jamie has a problem with Tom B) Jame has a problem with pretty much everything when it comes to the male gender and its non-heterosexuality. I don’t see where Jamie learns anything of this information about Tom, or what it even gains him. Wouldn’t it be more natural if he slowly learned about Charlie, and dealt with the discoveries piece by piece, slowly changing his fears into something good than suddenly realizing someone is trans only to then suddenly realizing someone else is ALSO trans and then falling in love with the 2nd one? It doesn’t make sense to me, above the fact that he has the tran-dar of epic proportions, that he is suddenly just so accepting from just one encounter.
Tova,
Do keep in mind that, while this is fiction and a willing suspension of belief is sort of required here, that this the text is a visual representation of thoughts or speech, and the way you’re imagining Jamie said the last line isn’t quite how Tab imagined it when he was writing it. We don’t have narrative to tell us how he said it, so we have to interpret it the best we can.
So, if we take that statement, ‘Tattoo Boy was a Girl’, yes, it can be read as Jamie accepting the statement as a fact (as you’re suggesting), or it can be with a slightly different inflection, one that suggests sarcasm, or maybe with one with an air of disbelief, like his brain can’t quite handle the new data it’s meant to be processing (which is NOT open acceptance). Not everything has only one meaning to it.
And to those who think you don’t notice the skinniness of someone’s neck in a fight, I think you do. I practice karate, so I can tell you that, when I’m fighting someone and have the intention of either strangling them or punching them in the throat to do some serious damage, I would take at least a glance at their neck, just to visually gauge whether or not my hands would be strong enough to do that kind of damage to that particular neck. Gruesome reason, yes, but I think a fair one, and when you’re fighting someone, doing damage (even the serious kind) does become the priority. I’d think about doing damage even if I was fighting my sensei – it would be an insult to go easy on any opponent, no matter the reason.
But yeah. That’s why I don’t think Jamie is as open as you think he’s being here, and why I think the neck thing is okay. And by the way, Tom has some major muscles going on, and it’s been my experience that men with arm muscles are at least a little more likely to have a neck width that’s directly proportionate to that (for an extreme example, old Swartzenegger). Girl, hum, yeah, definitely less so. Sorry for the generalisation, but I can only give you my opinion/ideas here.
Thanks.
Tova, I’m not saying there’s aren’t some issues with the story. I don’t want to tear on this one page when it seems like many people have already done that. However, every storyteller makes mistakes. That’s why there are editors, proofreaders and publishers.
As far as Jamie’s character, this arc is supposed to make it clear there’s more to him than this bully we see at the beginning. I can kind of see where this is going with Tom and I agree it might not have been the best or most rational way to do it, but . . . what I want to say is just give Tab a break. I get what people are saying about this, and I even feel like there might be some ethical issues with Jamie “outting” Tom in a way. But I want to look past that, because I enjoy this comic and I really appreciate the fact that Tab does it.
When did he out him? So far all we’ve got is JAMIE coming to a realization, something that anyone might do in the right situation. Putting aside the question of how realistic it is, Jamie is given a set of clues and draws a conclusion from those clues. Now, if he’d immediately shouted “HOLY SHIT YOU’RE A GIRL???” then yes, that would be outing Tom (or even said it to one person) but coming to a conclusion isn’t the same as revealing that conclusion to all parties within earshot.
It’s in the narrative to the viewer. Jamie is telling the viewer that Tom is a girl. Hence he’s outing him in a way. All the stories are told to the viewer; there isn’t really a fourth wall here. This blunt statement on Jamie’s part is a little unsettling when this pivotal discovery is left on an ambiguous fight scene page, focused largely on Tom. If we were meant to think that Jamie is thinking this, he’d be in the foreground with that comment, but instead we see Tom while Jamie is making a comment about him (to us, as if the viewer and Jamie are having a conversation and pointing at Tom.) I think that’s contributing to the discomfort some people are having about this page.
He isn’t “outing” Tom to the reader, everybody who
has followed the story so far already knew. And his choice
of words (“a girl” ) is Jamie’s (in his ignorance), not Tab’s.
How should Jamie know how to describe Tom otherwise? From his mother?
I’m pretty sure the assumption is that the viewer already knows. If it were meant to be a secret from the viewer, then it would be a big reveal- and honestly, that’s a pretty poor argument on your part. If you want to go that route, Amber already outed Tom and Charlie way back in her story- and Steve outed Mark, and so on. The viewers are not a part of the story; we are not part of the moral dilemma. Telling us that ‘tattoo boy was a girl’ is no more outing him as trans than saying ‘I had toast for breakfast’ is outing Jamie as someone who likes toast.
Yes, the viewer knows. That isn’t what I’m saying, I’m talking about theory. With this single page, it’s set up in a way that is through a certain “view” or lens and that view has implications, part of which are in its composition. Some people have posted that they’re uncomfortable with Jamie’s statement, I think it’s because of the composition of this piece. It doesn’t have so much to do with the wording as the context and the lens. If that’s garble: I’m analyzing the page in response to people saying they found it uncomfortable. That’s all.
I’m not sure how “outing” is literally defined, so it might not be the right word here. If we were characters in this comic and knew about Tom, but Jamie didn’t and didn’t know that we knew and told us would that be considered “outing”? Wording aside, we’re examining Tom in this page. What does it make someone when you examine them? Unlike in the page where Jamie discovers Steve and Mark’s relationship, Jamie isn’t involved in this page in the foreground. I tried to explain this in my last reply.
We are a part of the story, but not literally. I guess I’m kind of shocked by that statement as I’ve been re-wired by professors to think of almost every medium as communication and discussion. How can one not be part of the story? I didn’t consider the literal impact of what I was writing when I threw that little theory out there.
Hi again
Miko: I think you might have misunderstood me here. I love this comic and have followed it. I don’t think this is the end of the world, this page and Jamie’s conclusion. But since it was under discussion, I just added my piece of mind/ critical view. That said, I won’t stop reading the comic, I won’t loving it and accepting it and adore it and I won’t say that it is good writing – because 99% of it is.
Ruin: Above + following: considering that Jamie haven’t been fighting karate and defining his senses of muscles etc I find it still hard to believe. But as said, for me this issue is not so darn important. Also, when defining how Jamie thought of the outing.. It all depends on how the story progress, isn’t it? We don’t know so far, so both of us are only speculating so far. I am allowed to speculate, and within my speculation be critical, am I not?
Let me assure to you both: I love this comic and I admire Tab for writing it so don’t be defensive because I don’t like one page out of hundreds.
Hey~
I get what you’re saying and I didn’t mean to imply that you didn’t like that comic. For myself, I’m kind of conflicted, because I can see where people might find this page unrealistic and maybe where they might find it uncomfortable, but at the end of the day it’s Tab’s work and his creative freedom. I still love the comic, I’ll still read it. I just don’t know how to take this particular page.
the only thing in this that bothered me was jamie saying “tattoo boy was a girl” and maybe tab phrased it that way because it is coming from jamie, that appears to be still homophobic, which would probably make him transphobic, but if tab wrote this intending for that to be not offensive, they were way off. Tom is a male because that is how he feels, not what is between his legs.
Bear in mind that at this point in the story, Jamie still hasn’t had his full heel-face-turn yet. While a lot of us reading already understand the distinction, Jamie DOESN’T. He’s been trained that boobs + vagina = girl, and so his instinctive first thought at “has boobs, probably vagina = is a girl”. The concept may be offensive, but it’s completely in character.
Also, writer =/= character. Just because Jamie thinks something is a certain way, doesn’t necessarily mean that Tab agrees with him.
Yeah, just to clarify I in no way agree with Jamie’s statement in this page. It’s been very hard for me to write a lot of the things Jamie says in this story just because knowledge of queer and gender issues are so ingrained into me it’s very difficult to imagine what someone who doesn’t understand them would think/say. And even when I know what they would think, I can help but be like “But why that’s so stupid?”
I can’t imagine people actually believe that you agree with MOST things Jamie has thought or said up to now… Did people never hear of writer/narrator distinction???? You have created a great and multifaceted character with Jamie; by now I think he’s the most interesting (if controversial) of them all…
Seconding C.T Obvious and restating. . . well, the obvious. From Jamie’s introduction the difference should have been clear. He’s said some straight up shit things, and what with the bullying, it really should go without saying, Jamie is his own character with his own opinions and way of expressing things and whatnot.
Hell, if Jamie started out perfect this would be a boring ass story, right?
And it’s after this that Jamie makes a reference to Tom’s dick?
As a transguy myself, I am not offended or confused by this page at all. Sure, I wear a binder, and I appear to be flat, but I’ve been punched in the chest still, and even when I press down on it, there IS a slight softness and squish. Also, if you’re binding correctly, you don’t have a uniboob, and there ARE two separate compressed lumps, and Jamie only mentions that it’s SLIGHTLY soft.
I think that Tom passes well because he’s around 16 or 17 or whatever, and that’s an age where having a slightly higher voice is still acceptable, and with coaching your voice to a lower register, you pass better than if you don’t. But if you get punched in the stomach or something, you can’t really maintain that control over your vocal register out of surprise. I still sound rather high-pitched when I get excited or emotional, and it’s not really something I control.
As for the neck thing, female-bodied persons do have thinner necks than men, and as mentioned before, because Tom works out, and his arms are muscular, as well as his torso, it is unexpected for his neck to be as thin as it is, even if it isn’t that thin. It would still come off as disproportionate. I also have a feeling that the line may also be referencing Tom’s lack of a noticeable Adam’s Apple, though that’s only slightly probable.
I don’t think that there’s anything that glaringly wrong logically with this page.
Cut Tab some slack, it’s HIS stoy and he’ll tell it how he wants to.
There’s also the fact that women’s chests do feel remarkably different from similarly shaped men’s chests in my personal experience. Not that I go feeling up girls all the time (though my female friends get a giggle when they ask if I want to, being gay and all), but even women with small chests, the tissue feels very different.
And for someone as skinny and as fit as Tom? Squishy? That’d be like touching someone with pecs and finding wibbly wobbly stuff instead. Given Jamie’s sexual activity, I don’t think it’s all that far fetched to be like “What the hell? Men’s chests don’t feel like that!”
Today is THURSDAY and I am on TENTERHOOKS. *sets up camp*
looks like there will be no livestream today
D:
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Wait, is there no update today? :,(
Hey. Hey. Hey, Tab. Where’s the comic? D:
Read the post on the main page, nerfhead.
March 5: “Ho SHI-
(next update Thursday : D)”
Probably wanna take your own advice there, yeah?
Blah, never mind. Effin British date orders confusin’ me an’ all that. >.>
Yes, they confuse me too. I am still confused. The 5th was Monday. The 7th was Thursday. It is now the 10th. I don’t really care when the update comes out, but I would like to understand the updating schedule. Did Tab just mean the comic comes out NEXT Thursday?
Look at the post under the top one. “No livestream and update today as I’m too sick to sit on the computer for that long. Should be better by monday, if not I’ll let you know!”
Yeah, I saw that riiiight after I posted this. >.<
Its possible they might not break up (Charlie and Jamie). It certainly did look like the issue was “settled” in the picture, but like for example Nay’s story has her moving in on her kiss with Amber saying how she took a risk and such, but we didn’t know that they would actually get together until we saw the end (but we all hoped). Who knows, something might still come from Jamie/Charlie.
Wait, so when Jamie found out about Tom, did he just assume about Charlie since they were friends?
Can I have Jamie, Tom, and Murfs for Christmas, pretty please?
I still kind of think Jamie looks like the guy that Tom slept with back when he used to drink.
Maybe Jamie will recognize Tom now that he has figured out Tom’s birth gender.
Except Tom moved, remember? There’s no way Jamie can be one of Tom’s ex lovers.
Did no one else notice throughout all the other stories that Jamie had had a very bad and traumatic experience with homosexuality? And that because of that he was a dick? Didn’t make him being a dick right, but if you knew then it would make sense… And he would be easier to forgive…
And now…Unicorns!
Yay!
I think there’s a problem with your site, Tab. when I look through the archive, it says this is the last page, but if I go to this page, If I click next there are three other pages that don’t show up on the archive.
NOT a girl. Jamie is such a piece of shit.